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Joe's Girl wrote:Mr M, Don't tell me you think that this Labour movement is nearer than a million miles to a Socialist philosophy. :eek: The main thing I hold against them is that they pretend to be what they patently are not. There aren't enough horrible words in the English Language - Gee it's lovely to be able to label summat 'English' without being called racist :yippee: - for me to use to express my contempt for the party which is now in power.

Maggie was a cow, but she never sailed under false colours.

I never stated that the Labour party were socialist. They've obviously sold out their old socialist principles. But their stance is still more left leaning than extreme right wing; it has absolutely no resemblence to Mussolini's ideology.

The point I'm making is, the Labour party is a liberal, slightly left of centre organisation. Notwithstanding the recent foreign policy, their broad outlook is internationalist / liberal. They're against the death penalty, they're pro multi - racialism etc.

These policies are liberal, not fascistic. To claim that the Labour, Tory or Liberal parties have 'fascist' tendencies is a make a false statement. Well, to those who understand what fascism really is, anyway.




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Soz, Mr M, we seem to be suffering from crossed lines! :) I highlighted your comment about them being 'democratic' as I don't think that they are. To me - and I accept that I am not fully read up on all the inferences and implications of these labels - democracy incorporates socialist principles as they both relate to 'rule of the people'.

I have just found this in a link,though, which infers that I am mistaken in seeing democracy as ruled by the people. I certainly DON'T advocate mob rule.If the below is true, there is no such thing as democracy, as oligarchy seems to have taken its place.


"The ancient Greek word demokratia was ambiguous. It meant literally 'people-power'. But who were the people to whom the power belonged? Was it all the people - the 'masses'? Or only some of the people - the duly qualified citizens? The Greek word demos could mean either. There's a theory that the word demokratia was coined by democracy's enemies, members of the rich and aristocratic elite who did not like being outvoted by the common herd, their social and economic inferiors. If this theory is right, democracy must originally have meant something like 'mob rule' or 'dictatorship of the proletariat'."

"The tendency to turn human judgments into divine commands makes religion one of the most dangerous forces in the world.”

I've learned that you shouldn't go through life with a catcher's mitt on both hands; you need to be able to throw something back.

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Cant figure how to post the graph (haven't tried that hard)

I got

Economic Left/Right: -5.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.92

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mr. mustard wrote:
Joe's Girl wrote:Mr M, Don't tell me you think that this Labour movement is nearer than a million miles to a Socialist philosophy. :eek: The main thing I hold against them is that they pretend to be what they patently are not. There aren't enough horrible words in the English Language - Gee it's lovely to be able to label summat 'English' without being called racist :yippee: - for me to use to express my contempt for the party which is now in power.

Maggie was a cow, but she never sailed under false colours.

I never stated that the Labour party were socialist. They've obviously sold out their old socialist principles. But their stance is still more left leaning than extreme right wing; it has absolutely no resemblence to Mussolini's ideology.

The point I'm making is, the Labour party is a liberal, slightly left of centre organisation. Notwithstanding the recent foreign policy, their broad outlook is internationalist / liberal. They're against the death penalty, they're pro multi - racialism etc.

These policies are liberal, not fascistic. To claim that the Labour, Tory or Liberal parties have 'fascist' tendencies is a make a false statement. Well, to those who understand what fascism really is, anyway.


The labour party are anything but liberal, they are frighteningly authoritarian. No liberal party would imprision people without charge, allow innocent children to be finger printed or allow the introduction of the vile ID card system. In nine years from taking office they created over 3000 new criminal offences, they also removed double jeopardy so the state could keep dragging someone in front of the courts until it got the result it wanted.

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Jim, I do believe your graph puts you in the Limp Dem camp....? :chin: ;)

It's coming yet for a' that, that Man to Man, the world o'er, shall brothers be for a' that. (Robert Burns)

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Whirliegig wrote:Jim, I do believe your graph puts you in the Limp Dem camp....? :chin: ;)


The Lib Dems could cover that entire graph, they're all things to all men.

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Jim_UK wrote:
Whirliegig wrote:Jim, I do believe your graph puts you in the Limp Dem camp....? :chin: ;)


The Lib Dems could cover that entire graph, they're all things to all men.



There is another party trying to steal that hat right now. Whatever anyone wants to hear then the Tories are right there trying to say it, but making no commitments - just talk. As much as the Lib Dems are IMHO fence sitters they at least offer some solid/guaranteed commitments. Yet to see any of those from the Bicycle sitting position.

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sprenger wrote:
Jim_UK wrote:
Whirliegig wrote:Jim, I do believe your graph puts you in the Limp Dem camp....? :chin: ;)


The Lib Dems could cover that entire graph, they're all things to all men.



There is another party trying to steal that hat right now. Whatever anyone wants to hear then the Tories are right there trying to say it, but making no commitments - just talk. As much as the Lib Dems are IMHO fence sitters they at least offer some solid/guaranteed commitments. Yet to see any of those from the Bicycle sitting position.


Like what? The E.U referendum vote shows what a shambles they are.

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Joe's Girl wrote:Soz, Mr M, we seem to be suffering from crossed lines! :) I highlighted your comment about them being 'democratic' as I don't think that they are. To me - and I accept that I am not fully read up on all the inferences and implications of these labels - democracy incorporates socialist principles as they both relate to 'rule of the people'.

I agree that they've abused democracy; however, they still operate under democratic principles. They have to be voted in, and they operate under an electoral system. Anyone can stand against them.

Fascists abolish elections - it's usually their first act when gaining power. The Labour party haven't done that, they can still be voted out at elections.

How is that a fascist system :confused:




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mr. mustard wrote:
smeggypants wrote:Fascism generally means the individual is subordinate to the state.

That's a loose definition to suit your own vague comparison;
it applies to almost every system of government. For better or worse, states have to rule.


Ruling doesn't mean that that the individual is automatically subordinate to the state

Fascism is an extreme right wing nationalist undemocratic movement.


Labour is a left of centre internationalist democratic party. The difference is obvious.[/quote]

how is modern Labour left wing?

You're just using the 'fascist' tendency argument because it's en easy handle. It gets used often, in a very lazy way.

In actual fact, your comparison way off the truth.


If you refuse to see that fascism can mean anything other than a Nazi like extreme right wing nationalist undemocratic movement then presumably you'll give these fascist tendencies another name. No one is comparing any UK mainstream party to a dictatorial right wing undemocratic movement

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smeggypants wrote:No one is comparing any UK mainstream party to a dictatorial right wing undemocratic movement

You're saying they have 'fascist tendencies'. That means they're style is becoming fascistic surely?

Is that not comparing them to a dictatorial movement's style of politics? At least admit what you're stating.

However, no tactic by any mainstream UK party has even resembled a fascist one. It's not me who needs to change my definition, I suggest it's others.




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smeggypants wrote:how is modern Labour left wing?

Not left wing, just slightly left of centre. Someone like Dennis Skinner I would describe as left wing.




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mr. mustard wrote:
smeggypants wrote:how is modern Labour left wing?

Not left wing, just slightly left of centre. Someone like Dennis Skinner I would describe as left wing.


They might have been 25 years ago, but that's not what this map indicates where they have drifted to today though...


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smeggypants wrote:They might have been 25 years ago, but that's not what this map indicates where they have drifted to today though...

While it's undeniable that Labour have shifted to the centre, their policies are far from right wing.

They're generally liberal in policy; anti - death penalty, pro - free trade, soft on sentencing, internationalist in outlook, pro multi - culturalism, etc, etc. These are not policies of the extreme right.

I go on what happens in reality, not other peoples' ( incomplete ) maps.




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mr. mustard wrote:
smeggypants wrote:They might have been 25 years ago, but that's not what this map indicates where they have drifted to today though...

While it's undeniable that Labour have shifted to the centre, their policies are far from right wing.

They're generally liberal in policy; anti - death penalty, pro - free trade, soft on sentencing, internationalist in outlook, pro multi - culturalism, etc, etc. These are not policies of the extreme right.

I go on what happens in reality, not other peoples' ( incomplete ) maps.


How is the map incomplete in regard to Labour?

btw - did you do the political compass questionnaire? I'd be most interested in seeing your score. It might help on the understanding front. :)

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The multi - questions were too limited for me. A lot of the them I couldn't answer because none of them addressed my views. A graph / map is a bit too simplistic to sum up anyone's views IMO( mine anyway ).

The positions on the map of the political parties bear out this weakness as well.




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I'm suprised with mine, put in some pretty extreme views imho.

4.12, 3.69

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sprenger wrote:Cant figure how to post the graph (haven't tried that hard)

I got

Economic Left/Right: -5.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.92


Save the image, host it online with Photobucket

It's really quick host and link to an image from there.

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Booga wrote:
sprenger wrote:Cant figure how to post the graph (haven't tried that hard)

I got

Economic Left/Right: -5.62
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -2.92


Save the image, host it online with Photobucket

It's really quick host and link to an image from there.



Apparently there's no need.

you can use this URL and enter your own values... Cool! :thumb:

Code: Select all
http://www.politicalcompass.org/facebook/pcgraphpng.php?ec=-2.12&soc=-0.15


For example Sprenger is


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This is me:
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Smeggy's only D23 Member

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