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ghostgirl wrote:No, wait. First I have a question for you, Salz...


I asked my questions first and I still await a response. Perhaps you're just as well forgetting it.

ghostgirl wrote:Given your stance, why are you talking to me about this subject at all? I ask, because under the circumstances I can only see two good reasons why you might be continuing this discussion; a) You are merely attempting to discredit my (admittedly non-academic) view on the causes of the Great Depression, or, b) You were actually planning at some point to educate me further on the subject.


I understood this was a discussion forum and I thought we were discussing something.

ghostgirl wrote:My point is that actually I do recognise that you are far more knowledgeable than I am, and that you have an academic background in Economics, and contrary to what you may be thinking if my posts are inaccurate and/or naively credulous then I'm actually quite willing to learn about why this is so - and yes, even to change my views where necessary and appropriate.


Please...

ghostgirl wrote: May I therefore respectfully suggest that if you really do want to educate me on the subject then you might want to loose some of the attitude and perhaps even point me in a direction that I may follow in order to further inform myself on the matter? On the other hand if you're goal is simply to dismantle my current view without offering any opinions or pointers as to where I might be going wrong, then I would suggest that you're merely here to troll my posts and discredit me personally (as described below). In which case our little chat here is over.


I explained my view about the origins of the Great Depression and you and Smeggy did also, although you seem much less keen to put your head above the parapet and state unequivocally that the US banking industry deliberately engineered it. Moreover, both you and Smeggy were very careless with your choice of words and use of terminology and even posted statements that were prima facie contradictions of each other and when this was pointed out to you both you were forced to explain what you really meant and how you both actually agree. My conclusion, therefore, is that neither of you are particularly clued up on the subject.

ghostgirl wrote:Over the last few days you have offering my name into discussions that I had not even previously entered into, and included in those posts personal accusations that I am some sort of raving extremist who is incapable of compromising my views.


I haven't made any personal accusations that you are some sort of raving extremist but I must confess to finding yourself, Smeggy and Annie far removed from the impartial open-minded individuals you purport to be. Equally, Smeggy has indirectly accused me of taking at face-value the word of proven liars when my only "crime" has been to disagree with some of his far-fetched, illogical and frequently ludicrous theories.

ghostgirl wrote:And you have also suggested that I have no mind of my own and that I am somehow a minion of Smeggy himself, here, posting on this forum, with perhaps even some organised hidden agenda both of purposefully supporting his views, and drowning out dissenting ones.


Smeggy, Annie and yourself largely sing from the same hymn-sheets and share similar views about the primacy of conspiracies by all-powerful organisations and interests and, despite the fact there are others on here who acknowledge that certain conspiracies are a fact of life and that certain organisations and institutions act in self-interest, merely disagreeing with one of the CT's of the moment generates barely disguised allegations of naivety and gullibility on the part of the dissenter. The corollary of that, of course, is that the proponents of the CT are fully cognisant of how-the-world-really-works and can see through the bullshit that other common-or-garden forum members cannot. All sorts of people believe in conspiracies of some sort or another for the simple reason that conspiracies happen. The problem with this forum is that it has become little more than a cult of conspiracism.



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Louis Thomas McFadden (July 25, 1876 – October 1, 1936) was a Republican member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Pennsylvania.

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....

He served as Chairman of the United States House Committee on Banking and Currency during the Sixty-sixth through Seventy-first Congresses, or 1920-31.[1]

....

McFadden is also remembered as a "vociferous foe of the Federal Reserve,"[2] which he claimed was created and operated by European banking interests who conspired to economically control the United States. On June 10, 1932, McFadden made a 25-minute speech before the House of Representatives[3] , in which he accused the Federal Reserve of deliberately causing the Great Depression. McFadden also claimed that Wall Street bankers funded the Bolshevik Revolution through the Federal Reserve banks and the European central banks with which it cooperated. McFadden moved to impeach President Herbert Hoover in 1932, and also introduced a resolution bringing conspiracy charges against the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve. The impeachment resolution was defeated by a vote of 361 to 8; it was seen as a big vote of confidence to President Hoover from the House.[4]

In 1933, he introduced House Resolution No. 158, articles of impeachment for the Secretary of the Treasury, two assistant Secretaries of the Treasury, the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve, and the officers and directors of its twelve regional banks.[5]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_T._McFadden




EXCERPT FROM 'SECRETS OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE' By Eustace Mullins
http://www.whale.to/b/mullins1.html#CHA ... epression_

.G. Hawtrey, the English economist, said about the Great Depression, in the March, 1926 American Economic Review:

"When external investment outstrips the supply of general savings the investment market must carry the excess with money borrowed from the banks. A remedy is control of credit by a rise in bank rate."

The Federal Reserve Board applied this control of credit, but not in 1926, nor as a remedial measure. It was not applied until 1929, and then the rate was raised as a punitive measure, to freeze out everybody but the big trusts.



Professor Karl Gustav Cassel, in the Quarterly Journal of Economics, August 1928, wrote that:

"The fact that a central bank fails to raise its bank rate in accordance with the actual situation of the capital market very much increases the strength of the cyclical movement of trade, with all its pernicious effects on social economy. A rational regulation of the bank rate lies in our hands, and may be accomplished only if we perceive its importance and decide to go in for such a policy. With a bank rate regulated on these lines the conditions for the development of trade cycles would be radically altered, and indeed, our familiar trade cycles would be a thing of the past."

This is the most authoritative premise yet made relating that our business depressions are artificially precipitated. The occurrence of the Panic of 1907, the Agricultural Depression of 1920, and the Great Depression of 1929, all three in good crop years and in periods of national prosperity, suggests that premise is not guesswork. Lord Maynard Keynes pointed out that most theories of the business cycle failed to relate their analysis adequately to the money mechanism. Any survey or study of a depression which failed to list such factors as gold movements and pressures on foreign exchange would be worthless, yet American economists have always dodged this issue.

Article Source




"The agreement between the Bank of England and the Washington Federal Reserve authorities many months ago was that we would force the export of 725 million of gold by reducing the bank rates here, thus helping the stabilization of France and Europe and putting France on a gold basis."89 (April 20, 1928)

On February 6, 1929, Mr. Montagu Norman, Governor of the Bank of England, came to Washington and had a conference with Andrew Mellon, Secretary of the Treasury. Immediately after that mysterious visit, the Federal Reserve Board abruptly changed its policy and pursued a high discount rate policy, abandoning the cheap money policy which it had inaugurated in 1927 after Mr. Norman’s other visit. The stock market crash and the deflation of the American people’s financial structure was scheduled to take place in March. To get the ball rolling, Paul Warburg gave the official warning to the traders to get out of the market. In his annual report to the stockholders of his International Acceptance Bank, in March, 1929, Mr. Warburg said:

"If the orgies of unrestrained speculation are permitted to spread, the ultimate collapse is certain not only to affect the speculators themselves, but to bring about a general depression involving the entire country."

Article Source


Eustace Mullins...

In Secrets of the Federal Reserve (1952), Mullins outlines a conspiracy among Paul Warburg, Edward Mandell House, Woodrow Wilson, J.P. Morgan, Benjamin Strong, the Rockefeller family, the Rothschild family, and other European and American bankers to control the United States currency. He argues that the Federal Reserve Act of 1913, drafted by German banker Paul Warburg and others in a secret meeting (marked by a historical marker on Jekyll Island), defies Article 1, Section 8, Paragraph 5 of the US Constitution by creating a "central bank of issue" for the United States. Mullins goes on to claim that World War I, the Agricultural Depression of 1920, the Great Depression of 1929, and Adolf Hitler's rise to power were brought about by international banking interests in order to profit from conflict and economic instability.


Eustace Mullins...

"American history in the twentieth century has recorded the amazing achievements of the Federal Reserve bankers. First, the outbreak of World War I, which was made possible by the funds available from the new central bank of the United States. Second, the Agricultural Depression of 1920. Third, the Black Friday Crash on Wall Street of October, 1929 and the ensuing Great Depression. Fourth, World War II. Fifth, the conversion of the assets of the United States and its citizens from real property to paper assets from 1945 to the present, transforming a victorious America and foremost world power in 1945 to the world's largest debtor nation in 1990. Today, this nation lies in economic ruins, devastated and destitute, in much the same dire straits in which Germany and Japan found themselves in 1945. Will Americans act to rebuild our nation, as Germany and Japan have done when they faced the identical conditions which we now face--or will we continue to be enslaved by the Babylonian debt money system which was set up by the Federal Reserve Act in 1913 to complete our total destruction? This is the only question, which we have to answer, and we do not have much time left to answer it. Because of the depth and the importance of the information, which I had developed at the Library of Congress under the tutelage of Ezra Pound, this work became the happy hunting ground for many other would-be historians, who were unable to research this material for themselves."

Article Source



Ezra Pound...

"Here are the simple facts of the great betrayal. Wilson and House knew that they were doing something momentous. One cannot fathom men's motive's and this pair probably believed in what they were up to. What they did not believe in was representative government. They believed in government by an uncontrolled oligarchy whose acts would only become apparent after an interval so long that the electorate would be forever incapable of doing anything efficient to remedy depredations."

Article Source

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ghostgirl wrote:
Louis Thomas McFadden (July 25, 1876 – October 1, 1936) was a Republican member of the U.S. House of Representatives from Pennsylvania.

Image

....He served as Chairman of the United States House Committee on Banking and Currency during the Sixty-sixth through Seventy-first Congresses, or 1920-31.[1]

....McFadden is also remembered as a "vociferous foe of the Federal Reserve,"[2] which he claimed was created and operated by European banking interests who conspired to economically control the United States. On June 10, 1932, McFadden made a 25-minute speech before the House of Representatives[3] , in which he accused the Federal Reserve of deliberately causing the Great Depression. McFadden also claimed that Wall Street bankers funded the Bolshevik Revolution through the Federal Reserve banks and the European central banks with which it cooperated. McFadden moved to impeach President Herbert Hoover in 1932, and also introduced a resolution bringing conspiracy charges against the Board of Governors of the Federal Reserve. The impeachment resolution was defeated by a vote of 361 to 8; it was seen as a big vote of confidence to President Hoover from the House.[4]


I am very glad you chose to revisit this thread Ghostie and post some relevant source material. It must be said though that the article reproduced above is the only source you have quoted in which an influential individual – at least for the time – actually accuses the Federal Reserve of deliberately causing the Great Depression. I must hold my hands up and confess that I had never heard of Louis McFadden until today and had never heard of his claims although it does seem that he kept himself rather busy accusing particular individuals and organisations of various improprieties and conspiracies, including the incumbent President. The fact his impeachment attempt resulted in a miserable defeat perhaps says something about his personal credibility in the eyes of his peers or about how seriously the other members of the House regarded his claims.

There are various relatively anonymous internet contributors who have made claims about the Federal Reserve deliberately engineering the Great Depression but in truth most of the economists that many of us are familiar with, such as Hayek, Friedman or Galbraith, whilst perhaps ascribing different causes to the Great Depression, have never (to my knowledge) suggested that it was created by deliberate design. The reduction in bank lending played a major role but those who suggest that this was designed to turn a recession into a Great Depression are, in my view, thoroughly incorrect. Moreover, the Federal Reserve has few fans today outside of the Federal Reserve for a variety of reasons but the organisation of the late 1920s was a very different animal from that of today. Most economists would probably tend to the view that a ramshackle and fragmented Fed of the 1920s and 1930s would be largely incapable of engineering much given their level of incompetence.

The other source you quoted was Eustace Mullins who is notable because he became a rather famous author of “conspiracist” literature as well as being accused of being an anti-semite. Some of his material admittedly makes for interesting and thought-provoking reading but he has also produced work about the corruption in the medical profession, which reads like a cross between an Ian Fleming novel and a Fu Manchu story, and has accused just about every sector of US society of corruption. In particular he appeared to believe that the Zionist movement were hell-bent on "world domination", whatever that meant. That theory, of course, will probably go down rather well on here but it is Mullins' blunderbuss approach to casting accusations around and the extreme conclusions he reaches that preclude me from taking him too seriously.



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Yeah, sorry it took me a while to get back to this, because I've had a rather bad week this week. I haven't mentioned this on the forum, but my Mum died last Sunday. I've mostly been sticking to the easy-on-the-brain stuff this week.

P.S. Even though it's been a sad week, I'm not looking for sympathy or anything. I mean, it's always hard when someone dies, but my Mum was almost 90, had rarely ever been ill, and died suddenly of a massive stroke. She died peacefully in her sleep.


I do have plenty to say on this subject though, so watch this space! :)


P.P.S. You've probably read it, but anyway...

SECRETS OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE - EUSTACE MULLINS

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Economics itself is at best an inexact science. Always has been always will be.

The problem comes when banks try to demand more money out of an economy than they put in and causes recessions and depressions by doing it.

This is where the troules lie.

:cheers:



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Hayek's quote was aimed at me


"Intellectuals are used to understanding how things work and take pride in their rationality, so when they see something happening and do not understand the mechanics of it their inclination is to dismiss it as nonsense."
Hayek .


Is this why you are so angry ???? Of course it was not aimed at you ,as I do not consider you as an intellectual. You tend to have more of a "pack "mentality .



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Rebelitarian wrote:Economics itself is at best an inexact science. Always has been always will be.

The problem comes when banks try to demand more money out of an economy than they put in and causes recessions and depressions by doing it.

This is where the troules lie.

:cheers:



The system demands this is the default position. As you know Banks create the money supply out of thin air and charge Usury on it.

All existing money is already promised debt, so the Usury added to the debt doesnt' yet exist. The only way te economy can repay it is to create more money through debt, ad infinitum.

This is inherently inflationary too, and is why the Bank of England ( and presumably other central banks like "The Fed" ) have a target inflation rate greater than zero.

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annie27 wrote:Is this why you are so angry ???? Of course it was not aimed at you ,as I do not consider you as an intellectual. You tend to have more of a "pack "mentality .


I'm angry? Oh well, thanks for pointing that out as I hadn't noticed. For your information I don't consider myself an intellectual either which makes the reasoning behind your quotation all the more mystifying.



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Salazar wrote:
annie27 wrote:Is this why you are so angry ???? Of course it was not aimed at you ,as I do not consider you as an intellectual. You tend to have more of a "pack "mentality .


I'm angry? Oh well, thanks for pointing that out as I hadn't noticed. For your information I don't consider myself an intellectual either which makes the reasoning behind your quotation all the more mystifying.


No not so much angry ,actually more like a petchulant child who can not have his own way ,so says Mummy I hate you . :D



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Gawd, really do keep meaning to get back to this thread!... Had no internet for 2 solid days until this evening. Horrible.

Will have to just *bump* it for now.

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ghostgirl wrote:Gawd, really do keep meaning to get back to this thread!... Had no internet for 2 solid days until this evening. Horrible.

Will have to just *bump* it for now.



Save it until Thursday, GG. I'm sure there's going to be some interesting news by then. The words I am hearing suggest that the ECB is getting rather fed up with the Greeks dragging the euro down, and the kalamari is about to hit the rocks in spectacular fashion.

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tango15 wrote:
ghostgirl wrote:Gawd, really do keep meaning to get back to this thread!... Had no internet for 2 solid days until this evening. Horrible.

Will have to just *bump* it for now.



Save it until Thursday, GG. I'm sure there's going to be some interesting news by then. The words I am hearing suggest that the ECB is getting rather fed up with the Greeks dragging the euro down, and the kalamari is about to hit the rocks in spectacular fashion.


I'll be watching, Tango, it's all going to come down soon I think. Maybe Thursday, and if not then within the next couple of weeks when the US has to decide whether to follow the IMF's advice and raise the debt ceiling, or follow the IMF's advice and realise that the US can't afford even the interest on its current loan and that raising the ceiling will be fatal. Yup, that's right, the IMF really did give Congress both of those bits of advice. Brilliant, just brilliant, wish I had a job at the IMF, I'm always contradicting myself, I'd be perfect for the job. :rofl:

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